The young in every generation think there’s a shortcut to success: Shiv Shivakumar

Few know better than Shiv Shivakumar what it takes to succeed. He has headed Nokia, PepsiCo and is currently the Chairman at Vadilal Industries. He is also on the board of many companies and management institutes.

In this insightful conversation, Shivakumar looks at a career from a young person’s point of view. He offers guidance on what they should do and what they need to avoid in their journey to the top.

The following are edited excerpts from their discussion. To watch the complete interview, visit YouTube.

Sreekant Khandekar: Congratulations on your new book, ‘The CEO Mindset’. I wanted to ask you about your choice of ‘Mindset’ in the title. Why did you choose that specific word?

Shiv Shivakumar: Well, getting to the CEO’s job typically takes 15-20 years of very hard work and an excellent mindset. It is a mindset which has to rise above pettiness, above cynicism, a mindset which has to rise above personal ambition and take into account a collective ambition. You need a very different mindset to be a CEO.

Many people trip on the way because they don't display the elements of this mindset. And that's the reason I chose that word.

Sreekant Khandekar: When young people in large companies talk about climbing the ladder, they wonder about the role of luck, opportunity and the chance of being noticed by the boss. You’ve been in very large companies much of your life. How did you get noticed by your seniors? 

Shiv Shivakumar: In every generation, a lot of people, especially young people, think that there's a shortcut to success. That shortcut involves being in the boss' good books – basically, being a sycophant. Or it means taking shortcuts to show immediate results – and let the next guy clean up the mess, whatever it may be! 

The only way to stand out at any point in your career is to beat the living daylights out of your job. Full stop. You have to be very, very good at your job. That’s number one.

Number two, you should have few rough edges. If you're very good at your job but have too many rough edges, people will not like you. People will not promote you.

Sreekant Khandekar: Is it important to be liked? Is it important to be popular?

Shiv Shivakumar: It is not important to be liked, but it is important not to be hated. These are two different things. This is not a popularity sweepstakes.

My boss should have a reason to promote me, saying, ‘He’s damn good at his work, and he gets along reasonably well with people. He's not, you know, Mr Popular, but he will get along.’ On the other hand, if he thinks, ‘He's damn good at his work, but he just cannot get along with his people or his peer group; it’s going to be a disaster.’

Your behaviour is especially important in stressful times. Watch your behaviour under stress, especially when you're a junior or middle manager. 

Sreekant Khandkear: Shiv, do you remember a moment or moments when an opportunity arose and you did something because of which your bosses noticed you? 

Shiv Shivakumar: The trouble with a career is that it's lived forward but understood backwards. When you go through a moment, you don't recognise it's one of those turning points of your life. There were many such in my career. And my submission to all the young people is that if there is an ask from the company, put up your hand and say, ‘I volunteer’.

Sreekant Khandekar: Have you seen the attitude of young people towards ambition and success change over the last many years?

Shiv Shivakumar: Oh yes. First, 25 years ago, the company was everything for a young manager. Today, it is not.

Second, there are many other companies. No longer is a roster of five FMCG companies the most aspirational or desirable.

Third, there are multiple options before a young manager. In the past, if you were in FMCG, you were locked into that industry. Today, thanks to technology, a young manager can cross industries much more seamlessly than ever before. That's a huge advantage.

Fourth, thanks to the number of payment options, EMIs, etc., young managers can enjoy a lifestyle that their predecessors 30 years ago couldn't even have imagined.

Young employees today are far more articulate and far more tech-savvy than before. But equally, I must say, they're far more demanding of their bosses than ever before.

Sreekant Khandekar: Are there any habits or routines you’ve adhered to since you were young that you’d recommend? 

Shiv Shivakumar: The first, I’d say, is time management.

A lot of people don't realise that 50% of the impression you create is by the way in which you manage your time. It’s absolutely crucial.

I'm a very big stickler for time. I'm never late for any meeting. I'm always ahead of schedule. I'm well prepared. 

Second, reading – the ability to stay relevant. One of the routes to that is reading. You have to constantly read to educate yourself. If you're not educated on the latest trends, you're not going to be relevant. 

The third, I’d say, is having a teachable point of view. If you want to be a good leader, you need to have the ability to teach people. You can learn, but that's inward. Teaching is outward, and teaching actually spurs people to achieve their potential.

And finally, the ability to give and take honest feedback. I ask for a lot of feedback in everything that I do. Feedback helps you course correct. Where could I have done better? People can see things very, very differently. So, it's good to get different points of view.

Sreekant Khandekar: I have two issues to bring up in this question: the first is self-doubt. When you are young and get a big responsibility, how do you know you can or cannot make a good job of it? The second is about dealing with ambiguity – when the situation is fluid or the facts are not clear, how does one arrive at a decision?

Shiv Shivakumar: Great questions.

The first thing is, everybody has self-doubt. Don't let anybody fool you. The greatest of athletes, the greatest of politicians, the greatest of orators, the greatest of CEOs and managers – everybody has self-doubt.

Self-doubt comes from two aspects. One is the technical self-doubt. Am I up to the job? Do I know everything about it? When you have technical self-doubt, you have to brush up your fundamentals; you brush up your theory, and you work on your skills to get better. That's the easier part.

The more difficult part – and this is more common – is what I call personality self-doubt. The personality self-doubt is, do I belong here?

If I think I don't belong here, I start becoming jealous of my peer group, of other people in the room who I believe have got there because of the wrong reasons. Now I feel inadequate. I say, ‘Hey, can I really do this?’

I cannot tell you the number of people when we call them for speaking engagements at some of the boards I'm in. They say, ‘Shiv, do you really think I can do it?’ Now, that's a personality self-doubt.

There are two aspects to this personality self-doubt. One is confidence, and the other is courage. 

To back yourself, you need courage. And you can only develop confidence by being more courageous. The more courageous you are, the more confident you get – and not the other way around. 

Sreekant Khandekar: The idea of mentoring is an old one, but of late it seems to have found fresh favour. How can young managers find mentors, or is it a totally random process? How have you seen it play out? 

Shiv Shivakumar: If you are in a company, it's very difficult for you to pick the mentor. The mentor has to pick you. And the mentor picks you based on the values you display, the work you do, and the impact you have. No senior manager wants to pick a junior manager who's a flaky fellow. Never.

They would like their name and their guidance and their hand to be on somebody who's good. It's a natural thing.

In an owner-driven company, the owner is the mentor to somebody whom he or she sees as loyal. That's a very different type of mentorship.

Now, outside of the company, you can go and ask people, Hey, you know, I'd like to learn from you as a mentor.

For example, years ago, I was at a Unilever training course for general managers where (management thinker) Ram Charan taught us for a week. Even now, 20 years later, he has been a very strong mentor. And I always reach out to him when I am faced with a complex situation and ask, ‘Hey, what do you think?’

It was Ram Charan who told me when I was in Dubai running emerging markets for Nokia, ‘Shiv, I think Nokia's time is up. You need to move on. 'You're wasting your time'. I was shocked. At that time Nokia had a 35% market share worldwide.

We all need somebody like that who can give us the harsh truth. 

Sreekant Khandekar: When you look back on major or risky career moves you made, did they mostly work out?

Shiv Shivakumar: To be honest, I would say I've been very lucky. I'm really grateful to all the companies that I worked in and all the people who shaped my thinking and career. I would say 90% of the time I landed correctly. Maybe I wanted this job, but I got some other job. But over a period of time, it went on the right track.

The one regret I have is that maybe I should have gone abroad in the late ‘90s to work outside of India and experience different cultures. But, then, the company said, 'We have enough jobs for you here. You stay here'. Other than this, no other regrets.

Sreekant Khandekar: The ‘90s were an exciting time to be in India, what with the economic reforms and the boom that followed. Talking about regrets, did it ever occur to you to turn entrepreneur? 

Shiv Shivakumar: (Laughs) I think I'm very, very good at working for somebody else. I come from a family of bureaucrats and doctors. I've seen my dad, seen my uncles, all bureaucrats slogging away. I'm very good at working for somebody else. I think I’d be terrible as an entrepreneur, so it's a good thing that I didn't choose that!